Here is Erics website, with email address and more...

http://www.etischer.com/

thanks Jeff (missed you at breakfast today...)

I e-mailed Eric at his old school e-mail addy which bounced back...didn't know about this one....

QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 21 2006, 04:25 PM)

just got off the phone with a buddy that went for a ride over the weekend in Eric T's Subaru 6 powered 914...he's trying to find Erics contact info so I can invite him over here....I know he was using a 914 transmission but for some reason I thought he was looking into using a Suby tranny as well....

Just to be clear, Eric used the engine from an XT6, a 2.7L flat six. It's from an older generation of cars (1980s, mainly) and has a different shape bellhousing than the newer EJ series, so he'd have to use an older tranny.

I came across that page and got pretty interested, until I found out that the XT6 engine isn't all that powerful; don't recall offhand, but I'm thinking 135 HP. Might as well go with an EJ22. They're getting to be cheap and plentiful.

After breakfast at IHOP I messed around a little bit with the car. I pulled the AWD transmission and installed the FWD to see how it fits. The FWD transmission also has the output stubs installed in it.
Here are a few pictures of both transmissions side by side.

Another showing the area I ground away for more clearance. I used an aluminum grinding wheel for this - works great and does not plug up.

From the other side. Note how much wider the AWD transmission is across the top. I think the AWD transmission with the FWD conversion kit weights about 15-20 pounds more than the FWD.
Also note the short dip stick tube on the AWD transmission - this may come in handy later.

View from the front showing the extra bolt holes and the 2 locations for the release arm pivit in the AWD trans.

Back on the engine and ready to go in the car.

In the car showing the gap between the hybrid bus/914 axle and the output stub - plenty of room for a flange. Good clearence up top.

Starter - that solinoid is about 1/4' from the trunk floor. I still haven't found an indexable starter for the Subaru, being able to rotate the starter body will gain some needed room.

Last one for now - The other side. The short dipstick from the AWD transmission would be nice here. There is about an inch or so of clearence between the bellhousing and the trunk floor. The engine is sitting at about a 3 degree angle with the front being the high end. I think this angle is more in a Subaru.

This is just to clarify some things a bit. Jim sent me an email asking some questions.

Steve,

Have you settled on the fwd tranny being better for the conversion?

The grinding work you did tells me - yes??

Does it give more room for a custom axle flanges than the awd or is the spacing the same.

Glad to see some new pics - wasn't expecting the fwd tranny to be back in the mix : )

We will need a source for them but it should be cheaper overall than getting and awd and the saker parts.

Jim

Hi Jim,
I am using the FWD transmission because it has the output stubs and my AWD does not. The transmission requires disassembly to install or remove the stubs and I'm not in the mood to tear apart 2 transmissions just for the stubs, I am going to check on prices for 2 new stubs.

The grinding was to make more room on top of the bellhousing area - I prefer grinding on the Subaru parts vs. beating on the 914 body.

The spacing is the same for the flanges on both transmissions.

I think the FWD transmission will fit the best because of the shape of the rear case, but both will work fine. I am fairly sure the AWD transmissions are stronger and many of the AWD transmissions will have better (for perfomance) gear ratios and final drives. The FWD transmission is definatly cheaper if you can find one.

I still plan on making mounts for both transmission types - the engine craddle will be the same for both.

Great pictures. Looks like there's plenty of room to bang on that starter w/ a BFH.

I've haven't even seen one of these trannys in person, but I think I remember reading that the stub axles just pull out - there's some kind of ring on them that acts like a detent spring.

In the Subaru trans you need to split the box to remove the diff, the stubs have a circlip on the inside of the spider gears. If you did want to split it, I would fit a LSD at the same time....much needed if the turbo engine is used...

QUOTE (speedster356 @ Feb 26 2006, 06:30 PM)

In the Subaru trans you need to split the box to remove the diff, the stubs have a circlip on the inside of the spider gears. If you did want to split it, I would fit a LSD at the same time....much needed if the turbo engine is used...

The stubs are held in with circlips they are not coming out without taking the trans apart.

My thoughts exactly! Searching for a good LSD right now. The new factory torsen style with stub axles is looking good.

QUOTE (jsteele22 @ Feb 26 2006, 03:49 PM)

Great pictures. Looks like there's plenty of room to bang on that starter w/ a BFH.

I don't want to bang on my car with a BFH thats the point of this whole swap. It I wanted to alter the car the swap would be done by now.
Does anyone know of an aftermarket starter for a Subaru - I'm getting ready to alter the stock one.

Sorry, I meant the starter itself. I've got that no-hot-starts syndrome, and the only fix (short of replacement) is to bang on the starter or push start. One more thing to looking forward to ...

A little info that I found today...

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0403scc_hybrid/

Picking the transmission
Aside from the gear ratios, we couldn't find any definitive info about differences between the WRX and lesser Subarus. They all look the same, and the iSpeed boys know only that it seems to take about the same amount of time to break a regular Impreza transmission as it does to break a WRX tranny. As with any transmission, durability depends on how you treat it. i-Speed's Adam Levy, whose brain was the source for most of this information, has been running a 2.5 RS transmission behind his 260-whp WRX engine for 30,000 miles without problems. He knows others, however, who with only slightly more power, go through a transmission every other month. Your mileage may vary.

If you can treat the gearbox with respect, you want anything but a WRX transmission. WRX gears are way too tall, and the ratios in the naturally aspirated cars are much shorter. If you do switch to a WRX box, be sure to switch to a WRX differential as well, otherwise the front and rear wheels will go different speeds and you'll break the gearbox before you get out of the driveway.

The other option, of course, is an STi six speed. If you do this, remember that you'll need an STi diff, all four axles, and all four hubs. Everything STi is substantially beefier.

Whichever you choose, be sure to use a clutch designed for your transmission. Naturally aspirated cars use a push-style clutch, while WRXs use a pull-style; the two are not interchangeable. You'll need a stronger aftermarket clutch, of course, if you use the naturally aspirated transmission.

QUOTE (jsteele22 @ Feb 27 2006, 08:55 AM)

Sorry, I meant the starter itself. I've got that no-hot-starts syndrome, and the only fix (short of replacement) is to bang on the starter or push start. One more thing to looking forward to ...

Changing the starter should be a 5 minute job - same with the alternator. I bet the whole engine can come out in less than 30 minutes when I'm done.

QUOTE (WRX914 @ Feb 27 2006, 11:22 AM)

A little info that I found today... http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0403scc_hybrid/ Picking the transmission Aside from the gear ratios, we couldn't find any definitive info about differences between the WRX and lesser Subarus. They all look the same, and the iSpeed boys know only that it seems to take about the same amount of time to break a regular Impreza transmission as it does to break a WRX tranny. As with any transmission, durability depends on how you treat it. i-Speed's Adam Levy, whose brain was the source for most of this information, has been running a 2.5 RS transmission behind his 260-whp WRX engine for 30,000 miles without problems. He knows others, however, who with only slightly more power, go through a transmission every other month. Your mileage may vary. If you can treat the gearbox with respect, you want anything but a WRX transmission. WRX gears are way too tall, and the ratios in the naturally aspirated cars are much shorter. If you do switch to a WRX box, be sure to switch to a WRX differential as well, otherwise the front and rear wheels will go different speeds and you'll break the gearbox before you get out of the driveway. The other option, of course, is an STi six speed. If you do this, remember that you'll need an STi diff, all four axles, and all four hubs. Everything STi is substantially beefier. Whichever you choose, be sure to use a clutch designed for your transmission. Naturally aspirated cars use a push-style clutch, while WRXs use a pull-style; the two are not interchangeable. You'll need a stronger aftermarket clutch, of course, if you use the naturally aspirated transmission.

Wrx transmissions with way to tall gears on an awd subaru that weighs significantly more than a 914 are vitim to some heavy shock loads that tear them apart. On a 914 you have way less traction and weight thus not capable of exposing the trans to near the same loads that the heavier AWD WRX can. This is good because in a 914 the 5MT is a way happier camper. The tall gears are also welcome in a 914 which is so light.
You do not need to worry about matching the rear diff because ahh..914's are 2WD but im sure you know this.
6 speeds are nice but has anyone converted them to fwd to suit a mid engine application? I prefer a five speed, taller gears and less of them are better suited for high torque light weight cars. A perfect example is the marriage made in heaven of the 930 4 speed box with the small block on a 914.

Porsharu, Thanks for all the latest pictures im exited to know that the bus axle and flange is headed the right direction. Im game for a set of flanges and whatever other parts you make that you want to sell that will cut down the r&d on my project.

Here are the "way to tall gears"
US WRX (stock tire 205/55-16) Tire circumference is calculated
Gear Ratio Final drive Total ratio Tire Circ. Rev./Mile
1st 3.454 3.9 13.4706 78.15639 10920.38
2nd 1.947 3.9 7.5933 78.15639 6155.753
3rd 1.366 3.9 5.3274 78.15639 4318.828
4th 0.972 3.9 3.7908 78.15639 3073.134
5th 0.738 3.9 2.8782 78.15639 2333.306

I don't have the 901 ratios handy but I remember they were pretty close if you have the 4.11 or 4.44 final drive in the Suby. I think many of the Legacy FWD had taller gears (3.7 final drive)
The NA small engine (like 1.8l) transmissions had the "better" gear ratios (closer and lower final drive)

Food for thought - off topic but you do need something to bolt the transmission to.

And another

Hey Porcharu, how are those flanges coming along? How much $$ are they going to be? Im ready to buy a set.

QUOTE (atsealevel914 @ Mar 9 2006, 01:43 PM)

Hey Porcharu, how are those flanges coming along? How much $$ are they going to be? Im ready to buy a set.

Slow - my new baby is really slowing me down as far as the swap project is concerned. I should have some progress this weekend thanks to James.
Plan on at least $270 for a set, I'm probably not going to sell the flanges separatly (meaning you will need to buy the full kit) to people except to those that have been in from the start. Don't worry guys (you know who you are) you will be able to do whatever. The 3 people I'm talking about have been in from the start. They have also been helpful with the project.

QUOTE (atsealevel914 @ Mar 5 2006, 04:01 PM)

And another

You can really see just how much angle the Suby engine is mounted at looking at this picture. Looks like at least 10 degrees.

QUOTE (Porcharu @ Mar 9 2006, 08:39 PM)

QUOTE (atsealevel914 @ Mar 9 2006, 01:43 PM) Hey Porcharu, how are those flanges coming along? How much $$ are they going to be? Im ready to buy a set. Slow - my new baby is really slowing me down as far as the swap project is concerned. I should have some progress this weekend thanks to James. Plan on at least $270 for a set, I'm probably not going to sell the flanges separatly (meaning you will need to buy the full kit) to people except to those that have been in from the start. Don't worry guys (you know who you are) you will be able to do whatever. The 3 people I'm talking about have been in from the start. They have also been helpful with the project.

I cant use the kit since im doing an svx swap, cant you make an exception and sell me the flanges even if my name is jose and you dont like me (joke)? do it for the 914

So who's going to put together the CSOB plug 'n play kit?

Flange/CV/Axel/Hubs - Porcharu

Wiring Harnes - ?

Engine Mount Bar - Scott?

Mid Mount Rad housing/scoops - Scott?

Cable shifter - Wbergtho

Or maybe a set of the sorted designs for the fabricator pros?

Great job on all the development work guys....

QUOTE (flyloki @ Mar 10 2006, 11:00 AM)

So who's going to put together the CSOB plug 'n play kit? Flange/CV/Axel/Hubs - Porcharu Wiring Harnes - ? Engine Mount Bar - Scott? Mid Mount Rad housing/scoops - Scott? Cable shifter - Wbergtho Or maybe a set of the sorted designs for the fabricator pros? Great job on all the development work guys....

Best bet is buy all the parts from the same person or make damn sure one part is compatible with the other parts....

I believe Steve had planned on making an engine mount bar as well as a radiator mount.

My money is on Steve since we know he's making progress and we have not heard from Scott in a quite a while with respect to a "kit" from him.

There is a big difference between what Scott (Tony and Renegade) has done and what Steve is doing.

Scott has an EJ25 mated to a 914 tranny. See Tony's thread for dims on his engine mount as he is also using a 914 tranny and an EJ motor. Both are using $1000 in KEP adaptor parts but can use a stock 914 axle assys, shift linkage and speedo cable. Both have one off custom oil pan modifications as well. Great job guys !!!!

Steve on the other is making mounts and all for a Subaru EJ motor and for both the Subaru 5spd AWD and Subaru 5spd FWD trannys meaning no need for expense of KEP adaptor parts.

QUOTE (flyloki @ Mar 10 2006, 10:00 AM)

So who's going to put together the CSOB plug 'n play kit? Flange/CV/Axel/Hubs - Porcharu Wiring Harnes - ? Engine Mount Bar - Scott? Mid Mount Rad housing/scoops - Scott? Cable shifter - Wbergtho Or maybe a set of the sorted designs for the fabricator pros? Great job on all the development work guys....

That would be me.
I don't know what your idea of "cheap" is but I'm not going to get rich selling these things. I hope I can break even.

What I have in the works is a "hard parts" kit
1. Engine and transmission mounts - these bolt to the stock locations so no drilling/welding or cutting will need to be done to the car.
2. Radiator mount - engine compartment mounted radiator. I want to make this part of the engine cradle so everything is one "pod".
3. Custom adaptor flanges to allow the use of axles made from stock parts to fit the Subaru transmission.
4. Shift linkage. I have a design in my head for a cable setup, but a rod system may also work.

I have no plans on doing a wiring harness. Other people already do this (smallcar.com) and I am using an aftermarket EFI system on my car.

I am not going to sell plans because somewill go into bussiness selling my ideas. I am showing everything I do in my blog that you can copy if you want. I will price the kit so it would be silly to do it yourself unless you have all of the tools and like to fab stuff.

Porsharu-

Very cool, can't wait to see the final package. How will your aftermarket EFI interface with the stock harness? Which EFI are you using?

QUOTE (flyloki @ Mar 10 2006, 04:44 PM)

Porsharu- Very cool, can't wait to see the final package.  How will your aftermarket EFI interface with the  stock harness?  Which EFI are you using?

It will interface with the stock harness by never touching it. The stock subaru engine harness is gone. I'm using and SDS system.

Some progress today! I called work and told them I'm working from home (forgot to mention I would be working on my car!!)
James sent me a pair of Subaru flanges so I could mock up the adaptor flanges that we need.

I promptly chopped one of them up and tacked it onto a 100MM VW output flange.

Other side. The welds ain't pretty - was in a hurry and used the mig.

On the transmission.

Axle installed. The chassis is at ride height.

Nother one.

QUOTE (atsealevel914 @ Mar 5 2006, 04:01 PM)

And another

That is a good example of just how much Subaru tilts the engine - the plenums are level in the car.

QUOTE (Porcharu @ Mar 10 2006, 01:21 PM)

QUOTE (flyloki @ Mar 10 2006, 10:00 AM) So who's going to put together the CSOB plug 'n play kit?   Flange/CV/Axel/Hubs -  Porcharu Wiring Harnes - ? Engine Mount Bar - Scott? Mid Mount Rad housing/scoops - Scott? Cable shifter - Wbergtho Or maybe a set of the sorted designs for the fabricator pros? Great job on all the development work guys....  :beer2: That would be me. I don't know what your idea of "cheap" is but I'm not going to get rich selling these things. I hope I can break even. What I have in the works is a "hard parts" kit 1. Engine and transmission mounts - these bolt to the stock locations so no drilling/welding or cutting will need to be done to the car. 2. Radiator mount - engine compartment mounted radiator. I want to make this part of the engine cradle so everything is one "pod". 3. Custom adaptor flanges to allow the use of axles made from stock parts to fit the Subaru transmission. 4. Shift linkage. I have a design in my head for a cable setup, but a rod system may also work. I have no plans on doing a wiring harness. Other people already do this (smallcar.com) and I am using an aftermarket EFI system on my car. I am not going to sell plans because somewill go into bussiness selling my ideas. I am showing everything I do in my blog that you can copy if you want. I will price the kit so it would be silly to do it yourself unless you have all of the tools and like to fab stuff.

Porcharu,

I have been following this thread, but not contributed as I am no where near buying of engine/g'box stage but once there will provide any help as necessary. I am very familiar with subaru's, having owned a number of WRX's stock & modified including an STI back in Australia. I will contribute here as much as possible...

Please make sure you give yourself the opportunity, at minimum to break even. The work you have already done will help many people, myself included, and you should at least get some additional benefit out of it.

Keep on working at it, If I end up with the subaru engine/trans combination your 'kit' is the top of my list.

My C$0.02 about US$0.01.

Wow, that looks great. Your kit of parts sounds really good too.

I really think the idea of having the radiator, engine and transmission in a single "power unit" is really great. I had tried to come up with a way to do it for my application, but there's just no way without adding a lot of extra metal. Having to disconnect the radiator for each engine drop will be annoying!

Cable shifting is probably the way to go. I decided to go with a cable shifter on my car beause of ground clearance issues and a general desire to get rid of the linkage and its associated problems. If the transmission is already suited for cable shifting, then its a snap.

-Tony

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Mar 10 2006, 07:00 PM)

Having to disconnect the radiator for each engine drop will be annoying!

how many times do you think you have to drop the motor??

I like that welded up flange-to-spline adatper...if you can machine it to remove the excess material and get it to look exactly how you want it, you could that to the machine shop for a better visual idea on the part......

QUOTE (Mueller @ Mar 10 2006, 06:08 PM)

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Mar 10 2006, 07:00 PM) Having to disconnect the radiator for each engine drop will be annoying! how many times do you think you have to drop the motor?? I like that welded up flange-to-spline adatper...if you can machine it to remove the excess material and get it to look exactly how you want it, you could that to the machine shop for a better visual idea on the part......

I will be dropping the motor alot getting the kit done. I don't see it happening much after that - all work on the engine should be a snap in the car. I think the only time the engine would have to come out is for a rebuild or to pull the heads if you use studs.

If I still had access to the lathe at work I would have wasted some time making it pretty (I don't know how easily that thing would be to turn - it's pretty hard, my bandsaw cut it but it was not easy) .
I think I can just say "make it smooth here"

QUOTE (atsealevel914 @ Mar 10 2006, 08:06 AM)

I cant use the kit since im doing an svx swap, cant you make an exception and sell me the flanges even if my name is jose and you dont like me (joke)? do it for the 914

All right - I give. I'll sell you set of flanges. The reason I don't really want to sell just the flanges is because they are at the core of this whole thing that I am working on.
Of course I don't have any yet.
Is the SVX engine mounting different than the 4 cyls?

QUOTE (Porcharu @ Mar 12 2006, 12:42 AM)

QUOTE (atsealevel914 @ Mar 10 2006, 08:06 AM) I cant use the kit since im doing an svx swap, cant you make an exception and sell me the flanges even if my name is jose and you dont like me (joke)? do it for the 914  :headbanger: All right - I give. I'll sell you set of flanges. The reason I don't really want to sell just the flanges is because they are at the core of this whole thing that I am working on. Of course I don't have any yet. Is the SVX engine mounting different than the 4 cyls?

Thanks, I really appreciate it, my 914 is really important to me. Ill check if the mounts are the same. since your kit mounts the four back from the firewall to accomodate the rad, your kit might work for the six if the mounts are the same.

QUOTE (atsealevel914 @ Mar 13 2006, 07:46 AM)

QUOTE (Porcharu @ Mar 12 2006, 12:42 AM) QUOTE (atsealevel914 @ Mar 10 2006, 08:06 AM) I cant use the kit since im doing an svx swap, cant you make an exception and sell me the flanges even if my name is jose and you dont like me (joke)? do it for the 914  :headbanger: All right - I give. I'll sell you set of flanges. The reason I don't really want to sell just the flanges is because they are at the core of this whole thing that I am working on. Of course I don't have any yet. Is the SVX engine mounting different than the 4 cyls? Thanks, I really appreciate it, my 914 is really important to me. Ill check if the mounts are the same. since your kit mounts the four back from the firewall to accomodate the rad, your kit might work for the six if the mounts are the same.

Just compared the ej22t to the eg33 and the ej22t motor mount fits on the svx block but not vise versa. The eg33(svx) mount has the same dimensions as the ej22t but has one more bolt hole which registers one the 3.3. So yes a mount designed for a four will bolt on to a six. Maybe I can use the cradles you are making if engine placement dosent interfere with firewall.

Porcharu, I will measure how long the 3.3 block is from the deck surface were the trany bolts up to it, to the furthest most point of the front of the motor(probably crank pulley).

Would you measure how much space there is from were your kit places the trany to the firewall of the 914?
Thanks.

The transmission to block surface is about 1" forward of the "rear firewall" - where the rear enging seal is on a stock 914. There should be plenty of room for the six. There is almost a foot between the front of the engine and the firewall.
The distance between the transmission to block surface and the front engine tin seal area is about 24-1/2"

I've been reading back through this thread, and I've got an idea...

In this picture, the rod on the left is the one that controls the shifting (in/out, cw/ccw), right ? It looks like it is rather short, so that an extension of some sort is what actually protrudes from the rear of the Saker plate. (In fact, some of the other photos of the Saker plate installed didn't have a rod protruding, so I've pretty much convinced myself that this is the case.)

What I'm thinking about is cable shifters. A week or so ago somebody (I'm sure you guys saw it) posted a really sweet cable shifter design using a splined section from a (Suzuki Samurai ?) drive shaft. The biggest downside to that (or any other) cable shifter mechanism I've seen is the vulnerability to dirt and grime, and/or the need for a really good prophylactic. So what I'm pondering is the possibility of putting the crucial bits of the cable shifter inside the transmission housing. That way the male/female spline section would not only be protected, it would be nicely lubricated as well. I'm kind of picturing a sleeve that goes over that control shaft (I don't know what it's called) and is fixed to it. This sleeve has the male splines on its outer surface. Then a female splined section fits over this, and has an arm that is actuated by a cable to provide the cw/ccw motion. A ball joint on the end of the male spline section can couple to a second cable for the in/out motion. So rather than having the control shaft extending through the rear plate, there would be two cables.

Sound crazy ? Maybe just crazy enough to work ?

Cool idea but (damb buts always ruin things) it's not that simple. Those do-dads on the bottom of the picture are also part of the shift linkage. There is sort of a rocker arm at the end of the shift extension rod. I think getting the cables inside of the transmission case is do-able and is a good idea..

Okay, gotcha.

I'll probably need to wait until (much) later when I've got a tranny to mess with to see all the issues, but in general it looks like there's room for putting the guts of a cable shifter in there.

One thing I'm wondering is wherther the cable itself can enter the case. It seems inevitable that tranny fluid would wick back along the cable and enter the jacket. We'd have to figure out if that's a problem or a feature

BTW, how does the standard control shaft pass through the Saker plate ? Is there a plastic bushing ? a lip seal ?