am i or not
i will be talking to the guys with the conversion stuff here to see if this is the same as the five speeds or not

I was talking about the manual transmission shift linkage. The auto should be a snap, just use the Suby lever and a longer cable to move the lever on the trans. I am pretty sure they use a simple lever to shift it and not a nest of motors and wires - I hope so at least.

What did you use for axles on yours???

will be pulling the shafts soon but they look factory aqnd i have been told that they are 914 shafts mated to suby box output shafts(b efore the cv)when i pull them i will post

I came across this page by a guy putting a Suby tranny in a Spyder. It has some useful info including pictures and measurements. One thing that I had never seen clearly was the shift mechanism. From the pics, it looks like this is a "tail shifter" (which is just what you'd want for a front-mounted engine.)

Info on Subaru Transmissions

BTW, I saw this in a forum that might be useful for people reading this thread :

Subaru Transplant Forum @ USMB

Time to bring this to the front again.
I am having a hard time seeing how the cv's actually hook up. are they the 914 or the subaru cv's that are actually used?
I have a wrx motor that i am putting in my teener and i am going to try to put the subaru 2wd 5spd in with it. this may not be the best tranny but it is worth a shot. i can get one from an early 90's legacy for cheap.

here is a view that might help, not a 914 but an approach

That's exactly what I am thinking along the lines of. Might need to use a u joint or 2 but, it should be fairly simple.

Ohhhh. Thats nice. That would make the dog gear shifting possible as well.

Im watchin this thread...




I still wana get 25 mpg out of my v8... and I know its doable with the right gearing.

Does anyone know if the output shafts of the Suby trans are in the same vertical and horizontal planes as the Porsche trans? If not how much are they different? I'm not sure how much constant angle a CV joint can take on a continouus basis if the locating points are significantly different. Also I haven't heard a good explanation (either) of what CV's, axles, or adapters are going to be required. Anyone???

QUOTE (slivel @ Jan 3 2006, 09:39 AM)

Does anyone know if the output shafts of the Suby trans are in the same vertical and horizontal planes as the Porsche trans? If not how much are they different? I'm not sure how much constant angle a CV joint can take on a continouus basis if the locating points are significantly different. Also I haven't heard a good explanation (either) of what CV's, axles, or adapters are going to be required. Anyone???

The outputs are slightly different. I know that the Suby outputs are closer to the bellhousing flange (I think by about 1-1/2") and I "think" they are a little bit higher up on the case. I will try to measure things this evening.

I plan on mounting the whole thing so the CV outputs are in the stock 914 location - this should allow an extra 1-1/2 more room in front of the engine for my unique radiator idea.

I am still waiting to recieve my halfshafts from the Suby (I forgot to pick them up) once I have them I should have a good idea on what is needed to mate the Suby trans to the 914 hubs.
Steve

Hey Steve...

I know on the V8 conversions the transmission is moved back at least 1.50", it might even drop down a little...anyone confirm or deny that?

oh yea, thanks for the manual for the computer...

After doing some research, I believe the way to hook up the cv's is to use 914 shafts and cv's adapted to the suby's output flange/cv. This is done by cutting down the suby flange (cutting off the cv part) and affixing the 914 cv to the remaining part. I still don't know how it would attach, the cv has a much larger diameter than the flange. Any thoughts?

I finally got my axles - and they are crap. Covered in boat anchor type rust. They go back on Monday. I should have good ones by end of next week.

If the splines are different from the 914 the easiest way to adapt will probably be to cut the Suby joint off so just the flange remains and machine a new 914 bolt flange to weld to what is left of the Suby part.

That is exactly what i was thinking. Take a look at the spyder at this website. He is using 914 trailing arms with a suby tranny. The pics are small and not very focused on the cv's, but I believe that is what this person did. I tried emailing him but it came back as undelivered.

Sorry about that, I must update the email address on my site.
That's my 550 replica with the Subaru WRX/2WD gearbox. I bought the car in NZ quite a few years ago with the smaller 1.8ltr turbo and 2WD box, I installed the WRX engine and Liberty box about 1.5 years ago. I'm sure that the drive shafts are Subaru and mated to the 914 CVs as suggested above at the outboard ends. I currently have the box out to install an LSD so I'll get some photos and post them tomorrow. I found the 2WD box was fine for hillclimbs, supersprints and plenty of drag racing. Having said that I dont do 6000 RPM launches though. I also only run small 195/50/15 Yokohama AO32Rs so the box hasn't been loaded up very much at all plus the cars race weight is only 720kg. I can be contacted now via this website.
Cheers from downunder
Pete Mcleod.

Despite $500 for the aussy conversion parts - it is still a less expensive option than - KEP parts - nothing at all against KEP as they are first class - I am watching this thread as I am interested in the lowest cost option to putting bigger HP in my 914. Keep us posted : )

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 17 2006, 05:49 AM)

Despite $500 for the aussy conversion parts - it is still a less expensive option than - KEP parts - nothing at all against KEP as they are first class - I am watching this thread as I am interested in the lowest cost option to putting bigger HP in my 914. Keep us posted : )

i agree....I like the fact that one could go down to the Subaru store and buy the flywheel or whatever parts that wear out more easily.

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 17 2006, 04:49 AM)

Despite $500 for the aussy conversion parts - it is still a less expensive option than - KEP parts - nothing at all against KEP as they are first class - I am watching this thread as I am interested in the lowest cost option to putting bigger HP in my 914. Keep us posted : )

The cost of the Ausi parts was more like $225 USD delivered, not $500.

QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 17 2006, 01:56 PM)

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 17 2006, 04:49 AM) Despite $500 for the aussy conversion parts - it is still a less expensive option than - KEP parts - nothing at all against KEP as they are first class - I am watching this thread as I am interested in the lowest cost option to putting bigger HP in my 914.  Keep us posted : ) The cost of the Ausi parts was more like $225 USD delivered, not $500.

any idea when you'll be getting the parts?

had any time to work on your Bridgeport?

I could easily be persuaded to go with a subaru trans if we can work out the adaptation in a reasonably cost effective manner.

Any ideas if it would be possible to adapt the 6 speed from the STi? I seem to remember that the Aussie sleeves wouldn't work with that transmission... How much is an STi tranny likely to cost?

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 17 2006, 01:04 PM)

QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 17 2006, 01:56 PM) QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 17 2006, 04:49 AM) Despite $500 for the aussy conversion parts - it is still a less expensive option than - KEP parts - nothing at all against KEP as they are first class - I am watching this thread as I am interested in the lowest cost option to putting bigger HP in my 914.  Keep us posted : ) The cost of the Ausi parts was more like $225 USD delivered, not $500. any idea when you'll be getting the parts? had any time to work on your Bridgeport?

I think the parts are shipping right now
The baby is slowing stuff down a bit
So far on the mill I have a nice VFD to take care of the 3-phase problem, some really cool encoders to use for MPG's and a set of huge 1.2HP AC servos for the axis drives.

Here's my two cents: I have a 500HP LS6 crammed into my 74 and have learned a few hard lessons along the way. Of course, my car is a bit extreme and requires a more robust gearbox than most projects out there, there are a few freaks (like myself) that want to explore insane performance and at the same time have a certain degree of reliability. I would say that if your project gets close to the 400HP range...you are now entering the broken 915 transaxle zone...and often! I started with 450HP and knew a 901 wouldn't handle it...so I had a 915 built at CA Motorsports (LSD, tall 5th, reversed ring & pinion, etc) to the tune of $4,600. I put 2K on the car and blew 2nd gear off the shaft! I rebuilt the trans again at CA Motorsports, upgraded my motor to 500HP and said goodbye to the 915 on E-Bay. The guy who bought it has around 400HP and should have way better luck with it. Now what to do? With an open budget, the best option is a G50/50 turbo transaxle inverted and connected to a custom cable actuated sideshifter. Here's the problem...I don't own Microsoft and don't have $12,000-13,000 laying around. Believe it or not, that's what that system costs w/ clutch and all. So I ended up having my favorite trans expert, Bobby Hart of CA Motorsports, build be a reversed ring & pinion, short bell 930 turbo gearbox. It won't shift nearly as well as a modern G50 series gearbox...but it'll handle over 700 HP with the use of an oil cooler and Tilton pump spraying back on the R&P. What's more is the gearing is roughly the following: 1st gear = 60 mph, 2nd gear=90mph, 3rd=130mph+, and 4th=190mph plus (assuming my Sheridan body work is as slippery as I think it is. The 930 Box will cost me around $6,000 (I found a cheap good core for $500). Most cores cost $1500-2,000. So, the moral of the story is simply...."If you are running 400 HP or more and don't want to shred your gearbox every other weekend, you'll spend between $6,000-8,000 for a proper gearbox with usable gear ratios." If you've had better luck with the 915 than I have...I'm happy for you and wish you continued good luck. Perhaps I'm a bit hard on my car at times? I just want reliability and although I'm not rich...I'm willing to spend a bit of $ in the gearbox department. As far as Audi, Subaru, Renault, etc. I think their gear boxes can be made very reliable for motors putting out 300-350HP...any more power and you are entering the "expensive broken gearbox zone". Just my two cents...

At this point I am considering once again a sub conversion. I have a local dealer that comes across sub engines and trannies ona regular basis. He is not a fan of the EJ25 due to head gasket problems but likes the 2.2 and says a turboed 2.2 could give plenty of HP. I think even 135 Hp of naturally aspirated 2.2 HP would move a 914 pretty nice versus the 90 give or take HP I have now. Engine $350 and tranny $450 or so. Anyway I am watching this thread as a sub conversion is light, radiator in engine bay and cheap - SBC V8 new crate motor $1300, KEP stuff $1000, radiator set up in front $500 or so. My two sense : )

Guys, reading this thread has me a bit confused. Is a 5spd AWD tranny with the aussy parts the only option? I saw a mention in one post of using a sub fwd tranny but am not sure if the poster meant 5spd FWD or auto FWD or if either should work in addition to converting an 5spd AWD tranny. I have a local sub expert : ) who says the older EJ25 have some problems, he is a proponent of the EJ22 2.2 and suggests a turboed 2.2 for more power than stock of 135HP and better reliability over a EJ25. Just wanted to mention that. It is nice to know a sub 2.2 motor and sub tranny would cost less than $1000. Jim

There are 2wd trannys. They can be found in the older legacy's and impreza's. I have one of these which is what I will be using. the awd (all wheel drive) are more than likely built stronger to deal with the added stress of driving four wheels.

So the prevailing thought is that both auto and 5spd FWD trannys would install as well as a modified AWD tranny would. The benefit of the AWD tranny is that since 1993 or so all subs had AWD and there is much more aftermarket parts available for them as well.

Man - I am pumped by this essentially new revelation. Scott Thatcher mentioned to me in the past that he thougth a sub auto tranny could be used but you guys finding the aussy company that makes the bits to convert an AWD tranny are really on to something.

Being a Bolt On world - I would welcome a it that included most everything - except engine and AWD tranny - to install this stuff into a 914 such as brackets, cables, custom cv flanges maybe mated to vw bus or other axles, motor mount, tranny mount, etc.

Did I say that I am digging this thread. It willlead to the lowest cost conversion possible. Even a mild EJ22 2.2 135 HP conversion would be well worth the under $1000 cost : )

My question to Saker and their response ...

note: my daily driver is a 1993 subaru impreza 1.8 with FWD - the aspect of subaru putting AWD in all cars since then had not really been absorbed by my brain : ) Oh yeah I still wear bell bottoms and have long side burns - get I better get with the times : )

--------------------------

Some are asking on the above thread - why not just use a subaru FWD tranny instead of a converted AWD? Is there a reason you don't use a 5spd fwd tranny?
Are the AWD trannys stronger? Do you have numbers regarding the horse power capabilities of a 5spd AWD tranny versus the 5spd FWD tranny. I am actually considering an FWD Auto tranny if it can be installed in a 914 with less effort than a FWD 5spd.

Thank you,

Jim

-------------------------------

Hi Jim,

The main reason we use the AWD boxes is availability... they usually come on
the engines we use (WRX, Liberty GT). And I don't know of any Subarus that
have been sold in Australia as FWD, certainly not in the last 15-20 years! We
also use them because they are pretty straight forward to convert to FWD and
parts are readily available. There is also a whole range of upgrade parts
available from billet first & second gears right through to full billet dog
gearsets.

I'm no expert, so I can't really give you a comparison between AWD/FWD boxes,
or power ratings etc. We've got a car over here, around 750kg, running a
version 7 WRX STi (2.0L turbo) and a standard 5 speed WRX box converted to a
transaxle. It's been on the dyno and is doing about 215kW at the rear wheels,
if that's any indication. It's a race car and gets driven hard, and the box is
holding up fine. I'm pretty sure there are WRX guys out there running bigger
power than that through these boxes too.

Again, from the bit that I do know, when they have dramas with the boxes, it's
with 1st and 2nd gears, usually resulting from heavy launches. The WRX's all
wheel drive grip doesn't help matters in this regard, whereas our theory was
that in a 2WD installation such as the Saker (and maybe 914?) you'd break
traction before you gave the box too much grief. There's quite a few Sakers
running around with anywhere from 160kW to 200+kW and I don't know of any
major problems.

I hope this answers your questions...

Kind Regards,
Brett Longhurst,
Saker Cars Australia.

www.sakercars.com.au

As for axles/cv (a/c) joints - it appears the sub axles/cv joints are attached to the car via a splined and roll pinned connection - so either the sub a/c can be used with a mod at the outter end - or the 914 a/c could be used with a mod at the tranny end.

A local 914er I recently met uses vw bus a/c on his 914 as the are stronger than 914 a/c and shorter thus allowing him and extra 2 inches or so for his adaptor mating plates from the 914 flanges to the vw bus flanges.

No question in my - very non mechanical mind - some cnc parts will be needed.

Jim

I ran the concept across my buddy and suggested I contact raxles about some custom axles.So I did. I just sent them this email.

http://www.raxles.com/

--

A bunch of us Porsche 914 owners are about to start installing subaru engines ( EJ22 and EJ25 mostly) along with Subaru Trannys into our Porsche 914s. We are gonna need axles/cvs that can connect to the wheel flange of the 914 but to the tranny stub axle on the Subaru tranny. Some of us will be using 5spd and auto fwd trannys and some of us will be using awd trannys converted. I am hoping that regardless of the tranny or engine used - the axle/cv combo needed would be the same and not too costly. A friend of mine put my on to you guys - highly recommended - hope you can help! Jim Kelly

QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 3 2006, 09:51 AM)

QUOTE (slivel @ Jan 3 2006, 09:39 AM) Does anyone know if the output shafts of the Suby trans are in the same vertical and horizontal planes as the Porsche trans?   The outputs are slightly different. I know that the Suby outputs are closer to the bellhousing flange (I think by about 1-1/2") and I "think" they are a little bit higher up on the case. I will try to measure things this evening.

Some measuring with a tape measure (and some help from here) shows that the Subaru trans outputs are 1-1/2" closer to the engine and 7/8" higher on the trans case.
I think the KEP plate is 5/8 or 3/4" thick - if the all Suby combination is mounted so the CV's are in the stock location the engine will end up at least 2" rearward and 7/8" higher (or the car can be 7/8" lower with the same CV angle and less ground clearance.) The Suby AWD trans is 2" longer than a 901 so if it is mounted 1-1/2" forward there will be about the same amount of room behind the trans for a muffler.

Moving the engine forward would be a good thing - it's really two close to the rear of the engine bay bolted to a 901 with the rear pickup points in the stock location.

QUOTE (fiid @ Jan 19 2006, 05:47 PM)

Moving the engine forward would be a good thing - it's really two close to the rear of the engine bay bolted to a 901 with the rear pickup points in the stock location.

The engine is going to moved the rear (if it fits - 2.5 NA engine.)

srbliss - please take lots of photos and add them to your blog : )

There are many sub engine in 914 threads - of course most have KEP adaptor stuff in them with 901 trannys but there are several versions of engine bars, radiator placement and I am curious to see what you come up with.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=...2&t=32995&st=80
(see page 6)

Thanks,

Jim

Just got another good tip I just received is is to try http://www.precisionalloy.com/
and ask them if they can make a set of flanges that mate to the sub tranny output stubs to allow the use of the 914 axles/cvs unmodified.

I'll email them.

Jim

This is the response I got ... and my reply ...

-----------------------------------------------

I do quite a bit of this type of machining. I usually convert bus or Vanagon
flanges to Porsche 930 and have done 914 to 930 CV's as well. I have never
looked at Subaru. What is the configuration of the Subaru flange. Do they
bolt on,clip on from the inside or clip on like VW? Is the CV diameter about
the same as Vanagon?
Todd Francis, Precision Alloy LTD.
http://www.precisionalloy.com

------------------------------------------------

Todd,

While my daily driver is a 1993 subaru impreza 1.8 auto, and my fun car is a 1972 Porsche 914, I do not yet have my conversion motor and tranny bought yet. I did though just buy a haynes manula for my impreza and the image in there for the stub axle appears to show it as a short splined axle stub that the cv slides onto/over and there is a roll pin that holds it in place. What I do not know yet is if the stock 914 axle/cv is too long to accomodate any custom flange on the tranny side. If it is too long maybe the solution would be to use a vw bus axle/cv combo with custom flanges on both sides. I will put those currently facing these challenges in touch with you so that they can give you better info such as actual dims/etc. Another friend suggested I contact http://www.raxles.com/ - it looks like they make complete custom axles/cv for about $340 but I was hoping to do something less expensive?
Thank you,
Jim

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 20 2006, 11:22 AM)

- it looks like they make complete custom axles/cv for about $340 but I was hoping to do something less expensive? Thank you, Jim

I'm sorry, but for brand new custom stuff, you are going to have to pay....that is an excellent price and I doubt very much you'll find anything cheaper......


as for the adapters, figure about $30 to $50 each (min. and depends on quantity).......Steve should be able to make his own now that he has the Bridgeport and he is free to come up to my house and use my lathe if he needs to.

Steve,
Have uou thought about adding a manual Wildwood parking brake while you're at it.
Having a parking brake at the transmission flange can free up a lot of posibilities out at the wheel.
Marty

raxles has not replied to my email yet but they have a list of civic customs axles/cvx for $340 a pair. If they would do a custom axle/cv for 914/sub engine/tranny conversions - I suppose this would be about the same total price as buying bus axles/cvx and having custom adaptors made? Jim

I just got off the phone with Marty at raxles.com. He is confident they could make what we need are far as complete axle/cv assys. he mentioned that price would improve as more people are lined up to buy.

The key to this would be a motor and tranny mount that we could all use - one that can be replicated preferrably by the same person at a reasonable cost.

Anyway - I have high jacked this thread enough.

I'll back off for a while as I must be annoying more than a few : )

Have a great weekend,

Jim

QUOTE (Marty Yeoman @ Jan 20 2006, 10:55 AM)

Steve, Have uou thought about adding a manual Wildwood parking brake while you're at it. Having a parking brake at the transmission flange can free up a lot of posibilities out at the wheel. Marty

Now that's interesting. I just looked at my transmission and there is a nice stout mounting boss in about the right place for a caliper bracket on the right side of the trans. Add an aluminum rotor to the backside of the CV flange and you would have a nice light parking brake.

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 20 2006, 10:31 AM)

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 20 2006, 11:22 AM) - it looks like they make complete custom axles/cv for about $340 but I was hoping to do something less expensive? Thank you, Jim I'm sorry, but for brand new custom stuff, you are going to have to pay....that is an excellent price and I doubt very much you'll find anything cheaper...... as for the adapters, figure about $30 to $50 each (min. and depends on quantity).......Steve should be able to make his own now that he has the Bridgeport and he is free to come up to my house and use my lathe if he needs to.

True $340 would be a bargain for a set of strong custom axles. I am still hoping that what I read was true - Suby and vw use the same splines.
The mill is not ready to make chips yet. I am still waiting on pricing for the servo drives. Would machining with my infant son in one of those baby bjorn things make me a bad parent? I know that welding would not be to good.

Steve,

I am not sure - but I guess it could possible be a bad idea to bring an infant into an area with sharp tools that spin at high speeds and toss out fragments of sharp bits of steel. Maybe we need to consult a MOM : )

When will you confirm or disprove that vw splines are the same a subaru splines?

Jim

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jan 21 2006, 11:45 AM)

Steve, I am not sure - but I guess it could possible be a bad idea to bring an infant into an area with sharp tools that spin at high speeds and toss out fragments of sharp bits of steel.  Maybe we need to consult a MOM : ) When will you confirm or disprove that vw splines are the same a subaru splines? Jim

The little guy will have a face shield - safety 1st you know.

I hope to know about the flanges next week when I get my good axles, I have a VW bus axle to compare to.

I was able to measure the "width" of the CV outputs today. The Suby is 8-1/4" CV output to output (flanges are not in the transmission) the 901 is about 7-1/2" measured the same way. I still think the stock 914 axle can be used because the Suby looks like it mounts the CV closer to the trans than the 901 does.

I've been doing a test fit of suby engine and tranny in the teener today and it seems the 914 axles are to long. The axles hit the output shaft of the tranny. Now I need to know if the suby shafts are shorter but I don't have any. Any thoughts?

Steve and Andrew,

This thread rocks!

While I would like to save the cost of replacement axles/cvs it seems to me like this is one of the biggest challenges. raxles.com said that a promise to buy 10 pairs of custom axles/cvs would be enough to get the price reasonable. While Marty did not put an exact figure on "reasonable" I take it to be about what they sell honda versions for $340 or so.

To me the most important issue is having a standard design that can be replicated preferrably by the same person for the engine and tranny mount so that the custom axles/cvs - if we need raxles.com to make them - could be the same used by other 914club members provided they use the above mentioned engine/tranny mount.

I hope the engine/tranny mount could be the same for all subaru engines, turbo and non turbo and I also assume that most of us would be using the same 5spd awd tranny?

I am planning on a naturally aspired EJ22 mated to a 5spd awd tranny for mine.

60% more power than a stock 2.0L is enough for me.

Jim

Hey Pete, any info on the axles you are using?

I got the instructions for the AWD->FWD conversion today. Simple, simple.

Do you have a definition of "late model" .

Some have written that the very latest models trannies have more bolts to mate the subaru motor than slightly older ones do and maybe tall the 6spd have hydraulic clutches.

Any clarification would be welcome.

Thanks,

Jim

I'm just guessing here - but I think they probably mean anything after like 93-94 when the imprezza was introduced and the legacy lost it's boxy 80's look.

repeat: wild ass guess - don't know for certain.

They did say explicitly IIRC that the 6 speed trannys are different.

This is super cool - I'll be going this way when my 901 breaks....