Completely agree I would have to redo my whole geometry if I went with another or different set. No thanks. I did it when I built the engine and it was on the stand. I do not want to do it with the engine in place and am not dropping it again if I can help it.

Damn, the stock rockers/studs/balls/nuts cost some money. I wish I held onto the ones I had

Ebay. Just buy new balls.

Nope. Already bought and paid for. New balls, nuts, studs, and rockers. You kinda need all of them. Also, I do not trust any of the parts gotten from the vendor of the roller rockers.

Scotty, did I bring and leave my CIS test kit at your place. I can not find it anywhere and I need it, like now If I am to use the bus to help move my shop I need to get the CIS tuned up.

nope

How the hell do I lose a big red box with a CIS tester in it between Oct 1 and now? I looked everywhere I am pretty sure my pressure if grossly low.

Did you look in Baby Evil's toy chest? Maybe he was checkin' his CIS pressures and forgot to put it back ...

If you are in a bind for a tester, there is a guy selling a homemade one on vwvortex for $20 and there are plans out there for building them...

Between Oct 1 and now you have had 4 different garages.
I'd say its a wonder more stuff has not turned up missing.

You know the quickest way to find it of course. Just buy a new one. You will find the old one within a day or so of the new one arriving.

Zach

My jumper cables are missing, am going to buy new ones, I'll trip over the old ones tomorrow or Sunday

You've seen Mike's organizational skillz. It's highly unlikely he misplaced it. Someone must have stolen it

http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-mo...-kit-97706.html

I usually blame my wife for everything

Well they came down a long way at hf if you only needcis. Just saying since now you arent stuck at thelow end. Duplication is the key to clutter. Good luck. My mom always told me to clean up when i wanted to vfind things. Bless her spirit, it always worked.

HF has a CIS kit? Hmmmm.

Mike,

My apologies for the rest of the negative comments that the balance of the Motley Crew left here.

I for one, think your organizational skills are top notch

By the way, if you ever have to "work" on me personally in one of your medical MTV like "Cribs", please don't take the "NOT THIS ONE" tattoos personal...

Okey dokey, I finally took some time to go work on the bus yesterday. I have a download of the factory CIS manual and another one of a troubleshooting guide. From this I made a trouble shooting chart and reacquainted myself with the CIS.

Gripe list:
- Hard to start cold or warm
- Sometimes will not start warm
- Shitty mileage (could be because it is a bus and I drive it kind of fast)
- Poor idle. I had to adjust the idle high to keep the engine running when I switch from idle to D, otherwise it dies right off and it sucks to start (as above mentioned).

Based on this list, I had a suspicion that my fuel pressure was likely too low, and that this was either a restriction problem due to pump, or flow issue due to faulty WUR.

Pre-test exam of parts:

- Found that I had my Cold Start Injector wired backwards. This should not have been an issue, but I corrected it. I had Ground directly to one wire and power going first to the thermoswitch and then to CSI. This may have heated the TS and caused the CSI to prematurely close, but I doubt this was the issue. Fixed it anyway. The location I chose to put the TS in is unfortunately under more pressure than the TS could handle and it is pissing oil all over the place I will need to remedy this soon.

- Cleaned up oil, checked a bunch of other stuff, proceeded.

The test:
- The manual says to hook the gauge between the control pressure outlet on the fuel distributor and the WUR. Did this. Almost all tests are done here.

Findings:
- All cold, key on, system pressure is around 2.2 bar ( I think this is high).
- Warm running control pressure was 4.7 bar (seems kind of high, actually).
- System leak down pressure was good as it dropped fairly fast to 2.2bar and then maintained for over 10 min. (pass)

I have to admit making a mistake. I did not unplug the WUR power in when doing the cold system pressure check so I just noted the pressure dropping and the WUR making a whining noise due to it shunting the pressure in back to the return line. So, I did not record exact cold system pressure. I could not replicate the cold system pressure as the WUR did not cool down over the hour or two I was messing with it while doing other projects around the garage. I will go back tonight (maybe) and see if I can get cold pressure.

Thoughts:

-If cold pressure is too high, starting will be hard. The WUR did warm up pretty damn fast. The manual mentions 10min, mine was like <2min. The manual is not exact on each WUR and they changed about every friggen year.

-If I can deduce that the whole system pressure is actually too high, I can then change the check valve pressure limit with removal of a shim on the intake of the fuel distributor.

- One issue I am having with this thing is that the WUR I have has a vacuum component to it. So, to accurately measure it I have to have a vacuum source. So, I need to buy one I can measure. OR, I have a WUR without this feature and I can just omit this and try that out. I would rather do it with the one that came with the system (I think it is correct). An improperly functioning vacuum mechanism in the WUR would make cold starts suck as it would not drop the pressure and the pressure would then flood the cylinders on start up. A high pressure state makes sense as the engine floods often; smell of gas, wont start, have to wait 30min for fuel to dissipate from cylinders.

Any thoughts from those that know CIS stuff? Maybe the WUR originally had a special time delay circuit that I am not compensating for. Maybe changing to a simpler WUR would solve/remove some issues. I want simple. The current system does not have the TB pressure regulator that I have on my 74 2.7 in my 914.

I have an 85 VW Cabriolet with CIS. I feel your pain. In the past, my problems were the under car fuel pump, but you are getting high pressure. My car has an in-tank one too. Folks say that the screen falls off of it sometimes. Could there be something in the return line? When is the last time you replaced the fuel filter?

I have also been thru a few fuel distributors. Those things are so finicky. A mechanic told me once that he used to polish the plunger with ashes from his cigarette.

One more thing: the injectors. Mine are easy to pull and do a squirt test in empty water bottles. Could be plugged.

Good luck.

Clark

More digging, more revelation.

This is from a 3.0, so it is either 76-77. Non-turbo.

Atmospheric warm system pressure is 2.7-3.1 so I am significantly over this. Finally, a definitive problem. More to come as I dig around the notes and manuals.

Pressure being up could be an obstruction in the line, but the pressure was not up until the WUR warmed up. I just changed the filter, but that is on the supply side so if it was clogged it would be low pressure, not high at dist.

I dont smoke cigarettes, so that wont work

According to the scriptures, for a 76-77 WUR:
- PN 911 606 105 03 and 04
- Bosch PN 0438140017 and 033
- Test vac; 520-546 mBar (390-410mmHg)

- Atmospheric pressure should have max Bar of 2.7-3.1 bar
- At vac of 390-410mmHg pressure should be same as atmospheric – 2.7-3.1bar
- At high idle of 1800rpm pressure should be 3.4-3.8bar

And here is the chart for temp/pressure.

Based on all the above, there are two likely culprits:

- Check valve set too high, so I need to shim it correctly to bring the pressure down a bit. I think this is a good first step in that the cold and warm running pressure were both high. I need to get more data tonight.

- WUR is shot due to it obstructing and causing pressures to be too high. However, it is garbage in garbage out if the pressure in is too high, maybe. More to read up on.....

But wait, there is more! If this is a 77, the parameters change a lot

Two different PN:
- 911 606 105 05
- 911 606 105 06

At atmospheric pressure, cold - 2.7-3.1 bar
At 390-410mmHg, cold - 3.2-3.6bar (this is a change, but is still lower than what I saw)

Then the manual lists "system pressure", which the above were a measurement of, as 4.5-5.2 bar...... It does not stipulate warm or not for the 77, but 74-75 have same value and it does stipulate warm. The 76 lists warm running system pressure as 2.7-3.1 bar, way lower than the 74, 75, and 77.

I rechecked my notes, I actually got 4.7 bar and this puts me in the correct zone for the 77 WUR. I will amend the previous posts with the wrong value lest a CIS guru find this later, revive the thread, correct me and thus publicly spank me for my mistake

Oh goody, this may be a system from an 83 SC......and back to the manual.

Manual stops at 81 and 80 and later had O2 sensors on them. I think this is, latest, as 78-79.

Guess I will wait until tonight to check the part numbers.

Pretty sure the engine the CIS came off of was an 83 SC

Looking at other late model CIS systems and it appears that this is not likely one of them as it is missing a few of the things that they had on them. Really, a parts check will give the best answer, though. I hope to get the Dist and WUR numbers tonight and then can go from there. However, it does appear that pressure is good to go for most every year. So, I will try unplugging the WUR heater power and see if it starts better. Also, I have a list of tests to do with the engine running.....if I can start it. The majority of tests, other than idle set, happen with engine off and only the fuel pump running.

So, I read through all the iterations from 73.5 to 83 and, unless Scooter missed giving me some electrical stuff with this setup, like a brain box and a bunch of switches and a sensor for the tail pipe, I do not have an 80 or newer CIS with Lambda. That is good.

Another thing I find is that the 76-77 have a typo in its parameters for warm pressure. All systems have the same parameters. So, keeping it simple, I will rule out the fuel as an issue if these are followed.

Starting to think air leaks may be a bigger problem, but not sure why it was smelling and acting like it was flooding. Stay tuned, I hope to find out tonight.....by like midnight.

Click to view attachment

And, because I have enough bus issues to go around, there is a nice problem that has me a bit perplexed. Someone at the Canadian clinic had suggestions and a lot of experience....but I got drunk and forgot it all. I think it was Canada. Ya.

Anyway....

The teeth of the torque converter rub on the bell housing during start up on one section (ring, ring, ring, ring), but after a few minutes it goes away. I have pulled it and reassembled it 2x and all looked fine. Why/how is this happening.

I remember you having that conversation.

At some point in the evening you were shouting.

And losing the argument quite badly.



You were talking to a lobster.

Well, tonight was fun. Got a bunch or erroneous readings and could not figure it out.... the whole test kit is shit Cant win.

First read the plugs.

If rich check the fuel pump pressure.

Check the AAR to be sure it's functioning. Remove it from the bus put 12V to it and time it as per the manual.

If it checks out test the wiring to the AAR. This is a very important step as a faulty AAR will not allow you to even set the idle and throws off the dizzy when the engine warms up. Some guys start dicking with the dizzy and really mess things up.

Next if your fuel pump pressure is set properly check the WUR. Unplug the heater and set the cold pressure. If yours is not the easily adjustable kind go the pick and pull and search through the Volvo turbo cars and some vintage Mercedes. and find one that has the adjustable plunger. If you find one swap the top case with your WUR guts and start adjusting. If you can't find one pull yours apart and remove the plunger and drill and tap it for an adjustment bolt. This will allow you to easily raise and lower the plunger without dismantling the WUR every time.

Check for vacuum leaks. Oh, and check for vacuum leaks. Did I say to check for vacuum leaks?


Once you have these things checked and set the turn in the idle screw about 3/4 turn out or so start the engine and see if it will idle. If not start adjusting the idle screw (air screw) until it will.

THEN start adjusting the dizzy. You will be surprised how far out of whack that thing is once you get it set.

At least you can find the time to work on your projects.
Zach

Hey Rick,

Those are my basic thoughts. The plugs will not be much help due to the running that it got with messed up valve train, etc. The pump seemed to be flowing fine with static pressure. I was hoping to check running pressure, but not sure I can trust it.

At this point, the AAR, or other air leak seems most likely as pressure was good and it runs like a car with lots of air leaking. It will not stay running lower than 1800 or so, which is high idle.

Next, I will try to mess with air intake and such. I wander if my plenum sprung a leak.

I am debating what to do. I am being worked like a dog, 24 hours in the last 2 days and 12 more tomorrow. One day off on Mon, 12hrs on Tues, then off for Hershey. I am thinking I may take another stab at the bus tomorrow night and part of Mon. BUT, I now have a 914 and want to make sure it is in better shape when it is driven there. My local 912 friend will be driving it if the bus is up. If not, I will drive the 914. The 914 has a bad bearing that I can hear. Awful whine. I can fix it in a day....but that is one less day. I need the bus to haul cores (that I sorely need, and hope to find and buy) back to my house. Dilemma. I need to con, er, ask Scotty to transport cores for me to his place, or mine, or Sacks.

Drive the 914.
I'll store the cores, and will probably bring the Highlander.
Scott needs to drive the 944.

Zach

OK, I am sourcing all the bushings for my shifting, and will rebuild the trans tomorrow and Wed. I wish I could have gotten a short shift kit, but no one has a used one and a new one will not ship from the parts people until too late. Sigh. I may have to pick one up at the swap and install it there in the lot.

I am in need of a functioning bus. So, I am considering putting carbs on it for the time being and I can go through the CIS later and check welds, etc. A working bus will be a huge benefit as I wont have to tow it, and it will haul a lot of shit.

Does this sound reasonable? Anybody have a set of carbs and manifolds to lend me? Should I just buy? Should I start a post in the main forum begging for a set of carbs/manifolds?

I hate this I also need to definitively fix the drain pan on the stupid tranny. Time to throw money at it as time runs out!

Pretend you're a doctor and go buy a 3.2 motronic six. Put it in there and be done with it.

You dont get it. I am trying for truck motor, not race motor. I think a Porsche 6 is wasted in a parts hauler. Why not try to make an F1 engine fit and use my bus to haul parts? Same concept. Parts cost is a lot lower for domestic, corvair stuff. It is looking like I may do a Holley 2bbl 350 carb to manifold. I have the manifold, an adapter is $20, and the carb is like $180. I personally hated the last Holley I had on this damn thing....but desperate times = desperate measures. Maybe the 350 will be less temperamental. The corvair guys swear it will work well and be easy. I was leaning toward Eddelbrock 500 due to ease of operation....I am seriously deferring to those that have come before me.

Then stick a sequential turbo 6.4 diesel in there. While you're at it, put a crew cab and a bed on it and add some AC.

Parts hauler extraordinaire.

Click to view attachment

HMmmm, yes parts are cheaper, and your time is worthless, so keep at it. Buy a fuggin 3.2 and move on



On second thought, I'm sure Byron would trade you a set of carbs for something

Interesting one on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagen-Bus-Van...=US_Cars_Trucks

All you assholes really want to give me advice about making a choice of more modern stuff (3.2, diesel truck, etc) on a vintage car forum dedicated to a car that is plagued with all kinds of short comings that we are constantly trying to improve, and that is totally impractical to own other than it is really cool? Really?

Yeah.

Ummmm didn't you start out with that exact carb setup and tossed it in favor of the frankenweldCIS ?

The "frankenweldCIS " (I like this designation) was an experiment that I had planned before the carb. Remember, I got the CIS from YOU before the engine was even running. However, I do not have time to refine my monster. I need it moving under its own power. If I can do that for <$500, that is a win Besides, once it is running again, I can drive it to you for the roof swap!

Indeed