What have you done with your CV's Rob?

FYI my brand new (stock) ones lasted about 20 runs, then fell apart. 944 CV need to be in your future.

Paul Sayegh had his custom made for his 3.6 conversion. I plan on doing the same. For now, I'll just plan on breaking them.

This morning in a meeting my team agreed that engine kits are taking way too much away from our turnkey focus and moreover are sucking up our parts that are used for the turnkey program.

Due to this we have decided to only complete SIX engine kits per year and to only process them in November- February.

This is effective immediately, the November batch for 2011 is already filled with deposited commitments from buyers. These will be delivered in February of 2012. We will be accepting applications for those who want to be part of the batch of kits that begin in November of 2012 and deliver in February of 2013 sometime in the next 3-4 months.

This is the only way we can continue the engine kit program, it is too demanding labor and component wise to do year round and is such a great program that we can't cancel it. Offerings will stay the same as well as all the other processes, we will simply only do the one batch of kits per year.

Rob, You got the only 2432cc kit we ever produced.

I know

Seems I jumped the gun. Mark is buried in work that has to get out due to his recent vacation to the You Pee in Michigan. So we might be a week or two out yet...

It's your fault for adding that AAR.


That holds water, right?

So far... but there is a slow leak

Oh and Mark, I think I will take today off and just vegetate. By 8:45am I had all that I could take for today... I will not be coming down...

Edit: I was being cryptic here. It was too painful to type the words. At 8:45am my Golden Retriever Chloe who was a few weeks shy of her 17th birthday died. She waited for me to return from Reno and died in my arms. She was a Search and Rescue dog and I was her host family until she retired then she was all mine. If I was home, she would never leave my side and I still look for her lying on the garage floor as I work on the car...

As you're working with the SDS system, watch carefully the use of the MAP sensing--I couldn't ever get my 2316 to work really right with the vacuum numbers jumping around so much from the ragged signal that the huge TB's and 9560 cam produced. Typical vacuum numbers were around 6-10"Hg and varying rapidly on the SDS readout. Throttle response at AX and a DE at VIR was not linear at all.
After much discussion with Barry & Ross at SDS, I dropped the MAP sensing and went to TP sensing. Did it as their literature describes, then dyno'd it to do the final map. It's a procedure that has to be carefully followed, but has worked like a dream on my engine. Took it to another AX and DE & got perfect throttle response throughout the range. PM me for phone contact if you want.

John

John,
I have heard that about the vacuum signal. I am hoping that this common manifold will 'even' out the signal to the MAP sensor and solve some if not all of that. While I appreciate the offer to PM or call, I want to keep the discussion open to everyone so that we can all learn from our collaborative experience.
The manifold will take individual vacuum signal from each throttle body throat and output their average to the MAP sensor. Somehow, we are also using the stock AAR to give me somewhat of a cold start boost that will take the one minute of bitchy motor out of the equation. This is something Dave Hunt did with his and it works. By the way, Dave has the best running Type IV motor I have ever driven. He tossed me the keys at WCR2011 and said 'go drive' and I came back grinning.

We had the same issue on Roger Crawfords dyno down in LA with my 2.4. Decided to go with the TP positioning as well and it worked. We had some pretty heady folks at that dyno run so the right decision was made.

We had the same issue on Roger Crawford's dyno (Heads-Up Performance) down in LA with my 2.4. Decided to go with the TP positioning as well and it worked. We had some pretty heady folks at that dyno run and made what has proved to be the right decision.

I found this on the SDS FAQ on their site. This adds to the discussion. SDS seems to be saying that the driveability issues are acceptable to race engines. However, both of the people who bring up this issue are running race engines and found the problem unacceptable. When I ordered my system, I made it clear that the engine would be in a street car that was autocrossed frequently and did occasional track days. I believe I was talking to Ross and he made no mention of this problem. There is the possibility that the problem has been programmed out of the later ECU's but I doubt that...

08/13/03 Concerns When Using Multiple Throttle Plate Induction Systems

We have recently had several calls from people running induction systems with one throttle plate per cylinder and independent runner manifolds using our systems on street driven vehicles. These people often complain of marginal driveability under low throttle openings and/or low rpm conditions. We have never recommended the use of our systems with IR manifolds for the street, especially when using a MAP sensor for load sensing. The situation is worsened when combining this hardware with hotter cams, resulting in an unacceptable vacuum signal for the MAP sensor. This is race type hardware, generally not suitable for street use unless the user accepts decreased driveability and/or switches to TP load sensing

The vacuum averaging canister required on IR applications will result in a lower than actual vacuum reading than would be seen on a plenum type manifold setup due to the fact that all the ports which don't have a valve open to establish flow are leaking air into the canister. There is no way around this and this is the reason why few OEMs use speed density EFI systems with this hardware, they usually use an airflow/mass sensing system instead. Also, 95% of all production cars use plenum type manifolds. Our general rule of thumb for using a MAP sensor in any street application is a minimum of 15 inches of idle vacuum. Less than this any you may have to switch to TP load sensing with its own disadvantages. Race stuff on the street is usually fraught with compromises often not worth the gains in power after you live with the car for a while. Big, open mufflers bore into your brain on the highway, hot cams make the bottom end, driveability, fuel economy and emissions suck, huge turbos have big lag and high compression/high boost leads to detonation and broken engines running on pump fuel. Use your noggin here and don't expect miracles.

Below is the procedure from SDS for tuning with TPS only. I anticipate Dave Hunt joining this discussion later as he is probably tuning someone's teeth right about now. I wonder what Dave did?

Tuning TPS Only Systems

01/21/99 Revised 04/18/00

About 95% of the systems that we ship out use a MAP sensor. For engines with radical camshafts, low volume IR (individual runner) type manifolds or 2 strokes, the TPS can be used for load sensing. After spending several hours on the phone recently, helping customers tune their TPS systems, we decided to see how difficult this really was. Using our trusty Toyota Supra, we switched the ECU to read the TPS rather than the MAP sensor for load information.

Working on what we thought would be a reasonable curve for TP values vs. throttle angle, we started the car. It took only a few seconds to get the idle smooth. We spent some time upping the values just above closed throttle to stop a lean condition just when the clutch was let out. Then it was out to the highway for major setup.

It took about 30 minutes, using the mixture meter to get the TP map set quite well. By changing the RPM values below the normal idle range, we were able to get really good response and driveability everywhere. The mixture meter makes tuning much quicker and we highly recommend them for both TP and MAP systems.

Here is our recommended tuning procedure for TP systems:

Read the closed or idle Throttle Position in Gauge 1 mode.

Go into the TP values and enter 30 at this throttle position.

As a start, increase the values at each subsequent TP by 2 per location.

Now, start the engine and change the RPM FUEL values at idle rpm to obtain a smooth idle.

Enter the same RPM FUEL value all the way up the rpms. For instance if it idles great with a fuel value of 100 at 1000 rpm, enter 100 at all the rpm ranges.

Drive the car on the highway using 4th or 5th gear. A stretch of road with some hills may be helpful. Leave the rpm fairly constant by using the brake or hill to limit acceleration. Hold something like 3000 rpm and slowly open the throttle while watching the TP in gauge 1 mode.

At each new TP, look at the mixture meter and see if it is rich or lean at that TP. If it is lean at TP 13 for example, increase the value at TP 13 until the mixture meter reads correctly. It is essential that the TP be held at that location while you set the TP value. Also, a change in rpm may change the mixture slightly as well, so try to hold rpm constant with the brakes. Remember to vary only one parameter at a time so that you know which one is affecting the mixture.

Once you have set the TP value at 13, go on to 14 and so on. Going up a hill when you start getting close to full throttle will help save the brakes a bit.

Now, with all the TP values set at one rpm range, you want to pick a TP to hold constantly while the rpm is varied. Choose 3rd gear so that you don't get a big ticket and a TP of 20 for example. Hold the TP at 20 in gauge 1 mode and let the car accelerate while watching the mixture meter.

Note the rpm in gauge 1 where the mixture changes from what you want. If the engine is running nicely at 3000 to 3500 but starts to lean out at 4000, you can increase the RPM FUEL value a bit starting at 3750 rpm and a bit more at 4000.

Use the brakes to stabilize the rpm while you set the value. You can flick between your RPM FUEL set points and Gauge by hitting the gauge button back and forth. This saves a lot of scrolling. Set the RPM FUEL values all the way up at the same TP value. The engine should now run quite well under all TP and RPM conditions.

Once you get it set well on the highway, you can set the off idle range. You may find the engine slightly lean just off idle when letting the clutch out. You might have to ramp up the values on the first 3-6 TP locations above idle TP. We also found that the engine responded better by upping the RPM FUEL values at 500 and 750 rpm which allowed the engine to be slightly richer as the rpm sagged under clutch engagement. With the engine idle at 1000 rpm, these could be adjusted without screwing up the idle mixture.

We always recommend using a MAP sensor for street driven or turbo vehicles whenever possible as they run better and give you more programming options. If you must use a TP system for a race or radical street installation, following the above procedure will work well.

Below is a graph of TP values vs. throttle angle for our test Supra. Also see the complete values set on the Sample fuel maps Page.
TP VALUES GRAPH

Update 04/18/00 Start values

It should be noted that there is a difference between a system set up using TP load sensing as compared to MAP with regards to the amount of fuel supplied during startup. The mixture will be leaner with TP because it chooses the closed throttle value which is around 30 usually whereas a MAP system will chose a value near atmospheric pressure (80 to 110 in most cases). Because of this, you may have to raise the START values or develop a technique of pumping the accelerator during cranking to get enough fuel for good starting.

R.F.

rob,
I'm anxious to hear about throttle response and how it breathes, once you get it set up fully.
You may already know about this stuff, but I thought I would suggest something just in case.
There are colorized type-able heat shrink labels that you could use identifying signal names near each termination, over black heat shrink tubing to keep the number individual wires to a minimum.
A visit to a local harness contractor could show you alot of cool, clean ways to deal with mechanical articulation, vibration isolation, thermal issues and what not...

something like this...http://www.te.com/catalog/labels-identification/cable/menu/en/23686

interesting.....on our ktm v-twin FI motorcycles we use map and tps.....map up to 10% throttle position the it switches to tps. its called the F-L switch. the map sensor gives waybetter resolution at lower throttle settings. both the F (map) and L (tps) maps are tunable. as well as the switch. which gives smooth transitions. just like going from idle to mains with carburators.

i dont know why that system wont work with map sensors..... our bikes have 2 throttle bodies for two cylinders on individual runners with one map sensor per runner, and one tps for both tb's. we run huge cams with big valves and dont have a problem.

we use the stock (keihin) ecu that we break into with software to make any change we want.

we also map each individual cylinder.....unless you have 4 perfectly matched injectors. this is a good read about how different injectors can be...... http://www.robsdyno.com/injectors.htm

The only problem with TP only based set ups is no compensation for atmospheric conditions variations. In my Double Cab with SDS I use TP only up to 2,400 RPM, because after that the effects of the cam and ports doesn't make for nearly as much loss of tunability.

This is one reason I went to work with Electromotive on their new motorcycle systems retrofitted to one of our engines. The ability of this system to include part throttle "mixing" to overcome large cams and lower manifold vacuum has been amazing.

I have been very impressed with the results on the dyno and initially in my 912E, which is almost ready for road testing in everyday conditions as my daily driver. The engine runs so much smoother with the system than it did with any other system. I used Kit Carlson, Link, SDS and a system I was helping another company develop and none had the ability to provide the stable 800 RPM idle and immediate throttle response like the Electromotive set up.

"I have heard that about the vacuum signal. I am hoping that this common manifold will 'even' out the signal to the MAP sensor and solve some if not all of that. "
**Mine has the same 4 into 1 manifold....I even put in a restrictor (wire welder .030 tip) but still had the problem...it just has too little vacuum (high manifold pressure).

"Somehow, we are also using the stock AAR to give me somewhat of a cold start boost that will take the one minute of bitchy motor out of the equation."
**Hmmm...the SDS table gives an engine temp fuel richening curve for cold starts & it's working great for me...cold starting does take 2-3 pumps & maybe 10 seconds of holding 2000rpm, then it settles into a nice lope. As it warms up, the SDS leans the mixture and eventually switches into closed loop as I've currently got it set. With the chronically low oil pressure when the engine's hot hot from a hard run, I have the idle set about 1200rpm to avoid low oil pressure.

I think Barry & Ross's part about driveability on the street with a race setup is to let buyers know that it's not going to behave like your stock BMW/Volvo/Porsche with a factory system. I've got no issues with driveability on TP load sensing.

Something to note is that with these torquey engines in such a light car, in street driving, you're just barely cracking the throttle plates & are exceeding 55mph. For instance, with the throttle slam closed it's at TP 5. (TP at WOT is 50.) Driving in 4th gear at TP 6 gives 50mph & 5th gear gives 60mph with the throttle still at TP 6, going to TP 7 with a little headwind. Half the time as traffic dictates or in a 45 speed limit zone I'm cruising within the throttle range of TP 5. There's just hardly anything the injection system can use when your car idles at 55mph....
All the rest of the throttle plate's movement is reserved for those "wild hair" moments--oops, meant to say "tuning pulls" and the DE's & AX's....

Hey, I want one of those vents for mine...can't wait to plug off those pesky head lines....how can I get one??

Also, I noticed that the oil lines to the filter & cooler are barb fitting hoses. I just got the Potomac PCA DE tech inspection form & it forbids any pressurized oil lines with press on fittings, clamps or no. Soooo....since I really didn't like the looks of all those hose clamps on mine, I removed them, went to my friendly NAPA store and got proper hoses made up...cost $115....looks much better & should pass tech with flying colors.

John,
You may be able to get one by contacting sixnotfour here on the site. He is the machinist who made it up for me...

TPS tuning only may be a problem for me. I have homes in both Sacramento (sea level) and Reno (4500 feet above sea level). I work in Reno.

Is it possible to tune with with MAP for 10% of throttle and then TPS with SDS? I don't think my cam is as radical as yours either John. I am running the same cam that was in my 2270 Raby Kit.

I like your oil lines but the PCA rules are precisely why I don't do TT with them. Sac Valley Region cuddles up with Trackmasters for DE and they don't have the rules. If I were to do a PCA TT I would have to use my 36 year old stock seatbelts instead of my competition belts... I am a dedicated PCA member but I can't see how that is safer than the 'compromise' of using competition belts without shoulder belt guides or whatever reason they disallow them.

HEY!

Get this thing running already!

I wanna see it go

Jake,
Any idea what kind of vacuum I can expect?

Hmmmm.....I'm interested to know what the altitude does to TPS only sensing--I'll be up maybe 1000' at Summit Point and am at flat sea level here. Also, if you're doing only street driving, I think if you keep it in closed loop, it's going to adjust to 14:1 AFR automatically anyway. What do people with carbs do about altitude change? Are you going to be tracking or AX at the higher altitude?

I just put a vacuum guage on my car with the restrictor & taking the signal from the 4 into 1 manifold--sure enough at idle it rattles the needle like crazy and runs from 6" to 11" vacuum between idle and 2500rpm & no load, less needle jumping at the higher rpm ranges though. Only time the vacuum went above 15" was revving up and then slamming the throttle shut. Be interested to see what Jake offers about the vacuum on yours.

On the oil lines, I'm actually glad to get the push from PCA to upgrade them, & I guess the same goes for the seat restraints--they need to be part of a system & if not guided properly, the 5-point setup won't do what we would hope. Sooo...I'm in the market for a pair of racing seats, too. As it is, I left the OEM 3-point belts in and let the instructor take his choice--he chose the 5-point as did I....

TPS sensing cannot adjust to barometric pressure changes. If you tune for sea level and drive up 1000' it will run worse. If you go higher it will run even worse. AFR is based on air density and air gets less dense the higher you go.


14.7:1 is stioch. Stoich is only good under light load. at cruise and idle you can go leaner without trouble and preserve gas milage. Under heavy load you want the mixture to go rich to make maximum power.

In my system (Haltech) I have 2 MAP sensors. The onboard is for barometric correction. This allows the system to compensate for the less dense air at altitude and cut back on fuel. The other MAP is monitoring manifold pressure. as my boost increases the system dumps in more fuel. Guys with carbs usually go to smaller jets at altitude. This causes a lean condition at sea level. Then you swap in larger jets. EFI is so much easier...

So life has kept us busy lately... New Victoracers have had me out autocrossing every event I can find and McMark has been SWAMPED at his shop. But some progress is being made. Actually, we are so close it is just a matter of having the two of us in the same place at the same time really...

McMark built me a custom fuel line to feed the driver side injectors. I always hated that fuel line running across the engine thing and apparently McMark did too. I think he reads my mind sometimes because I didn't specifically ask for this.

Check out these custom lines...

Time for an update. Mark has pretty much everything mocked up and nearly ready to fire on the stand with the SDS EFI. Here are a few pictures Mark has posted both on his site and on Facebook. Notice at the back of the engine toward the flywheel, you have the vacuum plenum with lines coming from each runner of the intake. This may or may not work. We have had much debate over the MAP sensor and I honestly don't know what kind of vacuum to expect. Also notice McMark's attention to detail. He bent up fuel line to run fuel across to the driver side ITB's but he didn't stop there. He then sent the lines out to have them zinc plated. Very cool! The custom harness is all connected in the third picture.

This engine will go in the car within the next two weeks. Are you guys ready?

Is that Grey Shrink tube? or just the way it looks in the photo?

Any thought to what happens to the fuel line if the fan belt breaks? It'd suck to have a high-pressure fuel leak from that.

--DD

When was the last time you heard of a fan belt breaking? That line is steel, it's gonna take more than a fan belt to crack it open.

I like the fuel rails you have. Do they accept the newer injectors without the hose?
Who makes them and where can I buy them?

Fuel rails are custom built by McMark at Original Customs. He can make them for you... As to your other questions, he will have to answer. I don't know.

I think it is grey Rick. harness is custom built by Mark so he would have to tell you the source...

Haven't heard of one in a long while. Still, low-probability high-consequence... But if you're confident that a flailing fan belt won't break the line, then I'll believe you.

Thrown belts are more likely, but they don't flail around in my experience.

--DD

I broke one back in '94. Can happen.

Hope to see you down at the Marina at one of the events there.

BTW where did you and Mark hide the fuel filter?

I want to see it? When is the next pancake fest?

Randal,
I have one of those Fram canister filters just the the passenger side of where the fuel lines exit the tunnel in the engine room. That and the stock one up front. Fuel can't be too clean you know...

The Bay Area Breakfast is a couple hundred miles for me... I made it a couple times over the years but that was from Sacramento when it was only a hundred miles... I do wander the autocross circuit when I have the weekend off and a place to stay...

Maybe you should change your location in the signature...

I've been really happy with my System 1 filter. No issues at all. Mine is mounted up front by the fuel cell, next to the Marren fuel pump. When I cleaned it last month I was surprised how much stuff it had collected. I mean stuff that would have ruined the injectors.

BTW when we went on the dyno with my motor we ended up using the TPS for determining the base line. If I remember correctly the other option, i.e., vacuum didn't work. Must have been something to do with the fairly aggressive configuration.

I would but I also own a house there...

I am worried about not being able to use MAP Randall, but my cam isn't as aggressive as some... I guess we have to figure what kind of vacuum I am getting and go from there.
Check! Change the fuel filter.

Looks fantastic, ConeDodger. Should be a blast to drive with a torque curve similar the figures posted earlier. I'll continue watching with interest, since a RED 2270 Type 4 turnkey with EFI is on my wish list. Cheers!

-Stephen

2270 is a great engine. Love the torque. Less shifting, you just put your foot down and it has grunt everywhere!

Oh man! Mark is getting so close to running this on the engine stand with the SDS EFI. If you recall earlier, we ran it with carbs to run the cam in.

I am confused...and I admit I did not read the whole thread.

I thought you already had a larger than stock motor???
Is this for another car?

Rich

No, I have a borrowed blueprinted but stock motor. The motor in my car belongs to Jcd914 and it is a treasure! It has extensive and meticulous balancing and port matched heads. I think it was referred to as a B Prepared Time Trial motor for the Golden Gate Region Time Trial program. I have to give it up when I put in this motor. The engine builders name is Dwight Mitchell and he is legendary in California Porsche circles.

let's get a move on here

How's it going to if you never start it!?!?

was this new large motor a rebuild of your stock motor?
I thought you had a larger than stock motor already....maybe a few years ago.

Rich

Mark applied power and fuel pressure and nothing leaked or sizzled. Expect to see and hear it run tomorrow..