Gearing up for the weekend. Those who've read my first intro post on this thread may recall I've had a big beef with AA for decades. Received a small order of some hard to find bits and that caliper pin today and must say George did okay. Good prices, cheap shipping, and it shipped and arrived promptly.

Picked up enough tubing today to open all four calipers at once and let gravity do its thing over the weekend. We'll see how far this goes toward making me... er, I mean my brakes... hard.

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OK Brent....I'll be watching your brake bleeding progress.

I will be doing the same thing next week I believe.
I've got one of those pressure brake bleeding systems, so hopefully there won't be any drama.
But these are 914 Porsches, eh?
What could possibly go wrong? Ha

"I'm moving to Montana soon,
yippee hi-ho kayaaay!"

I should probably add a link to the article I'm following from the brake guru himself: https://www.pmbperformance.com/gravity-bleed.html

Tubes are on and reservoir is filled. This is the first fresh fluid in the car in 35+ years! I'm actually skeptical that gravity bleed alone will work. I think I read somewhere that Eric recommends pressure bleeding for fresh, completely dry systems. I think I'll need to crack the lines around the MC to break vapor lock before the fluid will start moving through the lines. With the car up on the rotisserie, this will be pretty easy. Stay tuned.

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Where in Montana? You need to watch this for sure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyLMwzDR4qY

Well okay. I'm kinda sold on this gravity bleed method! As expected, the MC was a little stubborn. The rear circuit flowed just fine and I'd say after 20 minutes of just sitting, I had fluid standing in the tubes at the calipers. I drummed on the calipers and regulator with a rubber mallet a bit to knock any air bubbles loose and left it sit.

The front circuit was a different story. It just didn't want to flow. I tried cracking the line where it exits the MC and pumping the pedal but no fluid would come out. I started panicking that the inlet tube was somehow clogged but verified that wasn't the case. Or maybe something was wrong with the MC. Finally, I hooked up a Mity-Vac to the front circuit outlet of the MC and pulled a vacuum. That did the trick to pull fluid through and break the air lock. After that, it was just sit and wait.

After shutting down the bleeders, I tested the peddle with my hand. It took a few pumps to push the pistons out, but it feels pretty good! I don't expect a really firm peddle until I've set the rear vent clearances, bedded the pads in, and bled the system again. But I have to say, I like how it feels and it was a pretty painless process.

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Glad you and George have made up!

I had a couple of bad transactions back in the 80s but have had nothing but success on this recent project. One little thing got a little screwed up but it was made right after a few emails. I don't even know if it was George on the other end, it just got fixed with no drama.

I chalk it up to:
1). Cocaine, big hair, and pastel linen sport coats of the 80s.
2). Age. We are all a bit older, wiser, and maybe more patient now?

I wouldn't go that far, but it's a start. I'm willing to believe people can change. I do appreciate the knowledge and help he brings to the forums and his positive contributions to the community.

I agree you got hammered way harder than I ever did. But as you state, he continues to contribute and has a passion for 914's.

Who else is still in business from the 80's?

I used to use Performance Products out of LA and liked them but they are long gone.

Stoddard - they don't seem to support 914's like they used to but not bad in anyway.

AASE but they have changed ownership if I recall. Still good folks though!

Wasn't there one called Automotion?

Plus who else had the foresight to buy a 916 back before they were loved. Gotta love that move.

Got filler applied and sanded on the passenger side. Can't say I'm proud of these pics because I was envisioning a lot more bare metal showing after blocking the filler. The filler is a max of 1/16" deep except for one small area on the rear quarter where the filler is closer to 1/8." That was after spending probably 40 hours trying to straighten both quarters after all the cutting and welding. What can I say? I'm an amateur. It is still WAY better than most collision shops would do and far less filler than I took off the car.

I was surprised and a little disappointed to find the sail panel had a slight concavity to it from the stamping. I guess I should have spent some time prepping that panel to make sure it was flat before welding it on. Since my car will have painted sails, I didn't think I had a choice but to fill it. Again, it only took 1/16" to bring it true but I hate seeing all that filler over a brand new panel.

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The rest of the afternoon will be spent tracking down a small brake fluid leak from the master cylinder area. I'll have to pull the gravel pan off to see exactly where. Hopefully, it is something simple. It could turn into a really bad day. What's worrisome is that I let the car sit overnight with fluid before putting the pan on, and there were no drips.

FYI

We’re losing and source for “previously tested” parts. Little Al is closing PartsHeaven as soon as he finds a buyer for his inventory.

So if you need anything, now’s the time.

I think I found the brake leak. Snugged up all the fittings and put a clean paper towel on the floor and waited. Thirty minutes went by and then..... drip. Shit! Took another look with a flashlight and saw one of the inlet grommets was wet. The brake line that feeds the rear circuit does a u-turn where it attaches to the MC and then crosses over the top of the MC. It was pushing against the grommet enough to distort it and allow a very slow seep. I adjusted the line with thumb pressure and dried everything off. So far, so good. I'll let it sit over night before putting the pan back on. This pic is after the adjustment.

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Some very hi end shop skim coat the entire car with mud.. I like to block like you then 3-4 coats of primer/surfaced and block that with guide coat 180 then 320. Then let sit to shrink some. Then reblock with 400 before sealer and base..

That's almost exactly the plan. The only additional step is that I'm going to shoot this with epoxy primer again before building up the surfacer. I applied the filler over epoxy cleaned and sanded to 400. I don't like the idea of absorbent filler sitting next to bare metal. I'll shoot epoxy again just to make sure all the exposed metal is sealed with epoxy. Only other change will be that I will take the surfacer to 600 before sealer and base. That may be overkill but I've read that when spraying silver metallic, going to 600 is a good idea.

I'm not proud of the extent of filler, but I am happy. Most of the filler is thin enough you can see the epoxy primer underneath. I'm confident I'm well within the limits of what would qualify for a "high end" job. The lack of pride comes from having a fantasy of meticulously working every panel to perfectly straight. Reality quickly set in when I realized I have neither the skill or time for that. Last fall I had to make a choice of continuing to dink with that or get the undercoat and interior sprayed while I still had good weather. I made the smart choice.

My biggest problem now is this damn master cylinder leak. I'm getting about 1 drop per hour from the forward inlet grommet and it's pissing me off. I'm kicking myself for not ordering the "easy option" on the 914Rubber MC. I wanted to stay as original as possible and knew installing those lines would be easy with the car up in the air and stripped down. I did not appreciate how Mickey Mouse the original setup is. Hopefully I can get that little a-hole to seat without draining the system and pulling the MC.

I probably need to spend more time over on 914Rubber's site.

I remember you struggling to get the metal grommets pushed into the plastic tube.

What is the easy option? Hopefully not a different M/C because I have a really nice NOS in the parts stash.

Unfortunately, yes, it's another MC. IIRC, for the easy option, they tap the inlets for barbed hose fittings and then provide hose and clamps to connect the MC to the plastic line the same way those lines connects to the reservoir. If only it were a retrofit option.

Don't get me started on those plastic tubes. They are a real curse factory. At least they are leak free though.

Brent....do you have the 2 small washers under the 2 lines that go into the top of the master cylinder?

When I inserted the 2 inlet lines into the top of the master cylinder, I did it on the bench...out of the car. Really tough to do with the master already bolted in place. Takes quite a bit of force to get those lines to seat correctly.

I have no leaks on my master.

These are just my experiences.

I was just going to ask about the washers. They are mandatory but not included with every MC.

I shoot thinned epoxy as my sealer .. It works well.

I do but can't say for sure they are installed correctly. I seem to recall they just dropped into the openings before pressing the grommets in. I guess to just create a surface for the grommets to seal against?

Yep. Nice thing about the PPG DPLF epoxy is that acetone is the reducer to change it to a sealer. At least one component of the paint is cheap.

Brent, did you install the 2 lines while the master cylinder was in the car....or out of the car?

"Dude we can fix it, my dad's got an awesome set of tools." -- J. Spicoli

I have a mill . . . . and I'm not nearly as attached to Original as you. Though I don't think I could bring myself to do that to a NOS M/C.

Well shit! Last night I carefully dried all the fluid off the MC and then tilted the car to the side to make it easier to trace where drips were coming from. This morning I checked. Inlet grommets - DRY --- Banjo fitting - DRY --- Welch plug on top of the cylinder - WET Looks like that plug didn't seal during manufacture. Before this test, I thought fluid was leaking from the grommet across the top of the MC and pooling around the welch plug. NOPE. I've dried everything off to double check but might have to contact Mark about replacing the MC. Fuch, fuch, fuch.

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Sorry to hear about the MC.

It's hard enough getting the self-made parts and other repairs to fit/work so it's doubly frustrating when a purchased component does this sort of thing - particularly when it's such a fun part to replace.

Whenever I run into crap setbacks or non-self-inflicted do-overs like this, I try and remember to step back and take in the whole picture. In your case, your car is looking great!

Thanks Chris. It could have been WAY worse if I had taken the car off the rotisserie before discovering the leak. Then I would have been lying on my back with brake fluid dripping on my face and cussing mightily! At least this way, I have plenty of room to work.

I have confirmed three times now that it is indeed the plug that is leaking. I can't see the top well enough with the MC installed, but feeling around, it almost feels like the plug never got pressed in. If that is the case, I can probably fix it myself but will contact Mark before doing anything. He may want to inspect for QC purposes.

My biggest worry at this point is that all these delays are pushing me up against my weather window for paint. I only have about 2 months before that window closes.

So this is a 914 Rubber master cylinder that's leaking?
Guess that's why I ponied up the extra to buy an ATE.

Yep, and their very first batch to boot. I would have preferred a 17mm ATE but couldn't pass up the price. I knew it was a bit of a gamble but they look well made and I knew Mark would stand behind them. It's only brakes. What could possibly go wrong?


To be clear, I don't think this is a safety issue because that part of the MC does not appear to be on the pressure side. Well, I suppose it would be a safety issue if you let the car sit for a year and drove without noticing all the fluid had leaked out.

A Pelican dropped off a package today. Nothing exciting: OEM fuel vapor hose, intermittant wiper relay, cable management ties, OEM heat exchanger hose clamps... but check out that fancy little Gucci bag the GEMO speedo cable comes in. How posh is that!?

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Am I done with these fuching brakes? I sure hope so. I contacted Mark about the weeping MC. Turns out they've had a small number from the first batch that did the same thing. Because that plug isn't ever under pressure, the leak didn't show in the original pressure tests they ran on the MCs but now they know to test for them as part of their QC checks. He said I could try repressing the welch plug myself and he would give me store credit to compensate for the hassle. If that didn't work, he would replace it. So that was my day yesterday.

First, let me say that installing an MC on a fresh new and dry system with the car raised high isn't exactly easy, but it isn't bad. Removing and replacing an MC after the system is filled with fluid is a shit show. I filled several swear jars before the day was over and this was with plenty of room under the car to work. I don't know how anyone does this with the car just up on jack stands. Okay, enough bitching. On with the show.

Here's the MC after pulling. That welch plug is the culprit. Hard to see in these pics, but it was slightly cocked in the bore when press. Also, I think the dye used to press was too large of diameter. Welch plugs are domed so that when pressed in, the plug is simultaneously pushed down and flattened out to squish the edges against the bore for a tight seal. Pressing only around the perimeter doesn't apply much flattening force.

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Before trying to correct this, I needed to be able to test the leak. This was easy enough by filling the MC with brake fluid and then applying about 2-5 psi of compressed air to each inlet port while plugging the outlets with my finger. Applying pressure to the front circuit quickly showed fluid bubbling through the plug making it easy to test if I was successful.

To fix it, I started by using a 7/16 socket in a vice to better seat the perimeter of the plug in the bore. 7/16" just fits inside the bore and closely matches the original dye used.

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Then I repeated this with a 5/16" socket to apply force toward the center of the plug to get the flattening I think was missing on manufacture.

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Here's how that looks after the re-press. The leak test was a success. Hallelujah!

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As an extra precaution, I filled the well over the plug with JB Weld.

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Spent the rest of the day cussing to put everything back together. Then bled the system again and let it set overnight with a clean paper towel under the MC. This morning there were two drops on the towel. Those were caused by slight seepage around one of the inlet grommets. I just wiggled and massaged the grommets and inlet tubes to better and think I fixed it. I'm not too worried about that but will wait awhile before putting the gravel pan back on. Here's hoping I'm finally done with these damn brakes!

I gave a MC to Ben so he might want to look at it before install.
@MB911

Don't let the setbacks get to you. You're making great progress.

Well I know I will now be checking mine before putting fluid in there for sure. Brent your experience will help others.. Thanks for sharing.

The setbacks alone don't really get to me. That's just part of a project like this. But they have put me way behind in an extra short summer in a place famous for short summers. We had snow through the end of June and now leaves are already starting to turn. I have a lot to do before I'm ready to paint. If I don't have the exterior in color before the weather turns, THAT will get me down. At the same time, I'm being very careful not to feel rushed because that will only lead to a crappy job. I just keep plugging and things will come together when they come together.

I feel your pain. I'm sitting here with my vacuum bagged neck leaking like a sieve and the vacuum pump buzzing every 2 seconds. I think by the time I'm ready to do any welding / chassis work on my back I will have lost 6 months.

If you had to you could pull off paint in the garage to extend the season. But either way, it is what it is. Don't rush paint, it never works out and it is THE thing that shows 1st if not done right!

I'll be wishing for an an extended Indian Summer for you!

Dude sorry for the brake debacle. Appreciate the know “how to fix “ info.
Hang in there man. Your progress is phenomenal.
We’ve all learned a lot. I’m not always posting a response here
but totally paying attention. Here’s to an extended summer for ya
Don’t rush to paint!
Cheers mate!
PS “ Superhawk” heal quick, wishing you well too.

sorry ..but that is not how a welch plug is installed..
https://www.spriteparts.com.au/tech/welch.html

B. Installation
Plug sould be installed with a tool similar to that shown in illustration. Tool diameter D = 0.95 x counterbore diameter.
The tool should be designed to bottom out when the plug is flattened 30% or more of its formed height but never flattened completely. The amount of flattening must be established by the user depending on the tightness required of the seal consistent with other factors of the user's design.

That does look better but I'd be afraid to do it on an MC for fear of breaking something internal. I was just following the instructions that Eric/PMB gives for installing welch plugs on rear calipers. I think it will be fine for this plug that isn't under pressure and better than the original install. At any rate, I'm not pulling that f'ing thing our again.

Got the putty on the driver's side today.

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Okay, now it's time to pucker my anus. This next step is going to be a butt clencher.

Brakes....what a mess, eh? Finally got my venting distances adjusted on the rear calipers, but have been unable to get the air out of the m/c or p/v in the rear. I'm getting a good flow of fluid without bubbles from each caliper, so the air must be elsewhere in the system. The m/c is new ATE, so hopefully there is not a seal issue?

Yeah, when Eric does the Welch plug on the rear calipers, he uses an arbor press that pushes in the center of the plug....not the perimeter. Maybe that was the issue with the 914 Rubber parts?

Body work is looking great and reminds me of mine a couple of winters ago....

Don't even think of rushing it! I know you'll regret it so just stay the course. You're doing great.

As you already know, everything takes longer than anticipated.

Tranquility Base here, the Eagle has landed!

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Neil Young - The Loner (slightly modified)

[Verse 1]
She's a perfect stranger
Like a cross
Of herself and a fox
She's a feeling arranger
And a changer
Of the ways she talks
She's the unforeseen danger
The keeper of
The key to the locks

[Chorus]
Know when you see her
Nothing can free her
Step aside, open wide
She's a roller

Giddyup!

Is today Brent's birthday? Same day as my wife. She got flowers.

Sorry Brent - you didn't get squat!

914 B-day....back on all four......

Oops . . . . slow on the uptake.

Even when you take into account Hofstadter's law.



Congratulations Brent!

Congrats from over the pond.